Specs, hardware etc.

[80sSmurf]

Following the interesting conversation with Shakey in the What are you pεlaying now thread, I thought a specs/hardware etc. thread would be in place

And I'll be more than happy to kick this one off ... As some of you may know, I'm about to get a new gfx card, ye ol' TNT2 32mb just doesn't cut it anymore .... With my budget (unless I can squeze even more money outta my bank ) I can get a Geforce 64mb (I know not the biggest upgrade, and it'll probably be obsolete in a years time). I've always sworn by ASUS cards, but Creative has some interesting offers on thye shelves at the moment .... Does anybody have any experience with the Creative cards ??? Then please post a comment here, thanx

The cards I'm looking at right now are ...
Creative;
VGA 64 MB GFORCE3 CREATIVE AGP RETAIL TV-OUT
VGA 64 MB GFORCE3 TI200 CREATIVE TV-OUT RETAIL

ASUS;
VGA 64 MB GFORCE3 TI200 ASUS V8200D
VGA 64 MB GFORCE3 TI200 ASUS V8200P
(don't know what the diff is between these, except 40$ .... maybe a cache thing ?? )

[Flix]

I have the Creative GFORCE3 and it works really well. I have experienced no problems since I got it. Well..one day I had this pain shooting up my left foot, but other than that..no problems.

[wavemaster]

Good question, Smurf...

When it comes to hardware, it's almost the same everytime: buy it now and you can be sure that will purchase a dated product.
In the race for performance, the manufacturers are throwing out new hardware every 6 months (at least that's my impression), so it's really hard to make the right decision.

Coming to graphic cards...it depends on what you are playing and how much money you can extort from your bank.
Fast action games with lots of details (e.g. FIFA 2) are requiring a lot from your graphic card, but it's not the card alone which is guaranteering a good performance. Your mainboard (or motherboard :lol ) should also be able to support all the functions of the graphic card, like 4x AGP and more.

Now...which card to buy?
If you can live with poorer performance (and want to stack up a little more money), I say wait.
NVidia is soon releasing the GF4 4200 series which is the cheapest of the 4000 series. The performance can be compared to GF3 TI 200 cards, but the 4200 will support the new DirectX-9 standards - according to German computer mags, this will be the next big thing in computer gaming.
Matrox is also coming up with a new chip, the Parhelia, and PowerVR has the Kyro III in the starting grid. Both products are due for late Summer/Fall, so you don't have to wait too long.

If you can't stand the waiting and/or the excitement, get either a GF 3TI 200 or the GF4 4400 or 4600 (if your bank account allows it). If money does matter, you can also go for the GF4 MX 460, but it's no clear recommendation since they are too expensive compared to the performance.

BTW...the main difference between the ASUS V8200 D(eLuxe) and the V8200 P(ure) is the outfit: the D comes with additional TV-Out, Video-In and 3D-goggles, the tech specs are the same. If you can live without these extras, save the 40$.

[80sSmurf]

Thanx to the both of ya

A li'l confused here Wavey (what else is new ?? )
Nvidia will release a GF4 card ? My current TNT2 card has a Nvidia chipset, but it's manufactured by Asus. I didn't think Nvidia made gfx cards .... Please enlighten this confused smurf Seems like I've got a wrong conception of what a chipset is

I have an Asus A7V socket A motherboard ... I know it's also a li'l dated, but it supports most features of various gfx cards, plus I can put a 1.2 ghz cpu on it, this will probably stay with me for at least a year (by then it's probably time to extort (as you so correctly said it ) the bank again, and build a new computer

Thanx for the info on the Asus cards

[wavemaster]

Yo Smurf...you might want to do other things besides of stalking Pippi and watching the World Cup...

The graphic cards with the GF4-chipset are available since about 4 - 6 months. The current favourite of the German comp mags is the Gainward Golden Sample Ultra 750 XP with the GF4 TI 4600 graphic chip, but you have to lash out some 600€ for it. A bit cheaper is the MSI G4 TI 4400 for 409€ and the Gainward GS Ultra 700 XP with the TI 4400 for 399€. ASUS offers the V8460 Ultra (TI 4600) for 569€ and the V8440 (TI 4400) for 449€.

Okay...performance is (very) expensive. If you don't want to make a withdrawal with a ski mask and an .45-argument enhancer, you might want to check out the WinFast Titanium 200 TDH with the GF3 TI 200-chip for 259€ or the Sparkle SP7000T2 (GF 3 TI 200) for 249€.

If you even can't afford a water pistol (you see, we are going down with the demands ), take a look at the WinFast A 170 DDR T (GF4 MX440) for 169€ or the Dream GeForce4 MX 420 for 99€ - both cards had earned an recommendation for their overclocking performance.

Still confused? Yeah.
As I have mentioned before, it depends on what you are playing and expecting. A cheaper card might save some money at first, but you are probably experiencing the limits of the card sooner as desired.

Another tip: make sure that your power supply is able to provide enough output to support your PC after upgrading your graphic card. Those newer graphic cards can be quite hungry for that power stuff - GF3-users have often reported a black screen after replacing the old card with a GF3 because of a weak power supply. If your power supply provides more than 300 W/16 A, you shouldn't experience any troubles. If not, it's recommended to get a quality power supply (e.g. Enermax) with at least 350 W or 435 W.

[80sSmurf]

Originally posted by wavemaster
[b]Yo Smurf...you might want to do other things besides of stalking Pippi and watching the World Cup...

You mean like drink beer, post fluff and prepare the tent for your visit ??

Still confused? Yeah.
As I have mentioned before, it depends on what you are playing and expecting. A cheaper card might save some money at first, but you are probably experiencing the limits of the card sooner as desired.

Yup still a bit baffled, but nothing I can't sort out with a li'l research

I can probably get by with a cheaper card for now, as long as it's a TI (I'll stay clear of any MX cards) ... OK so I play some 3D games, but nothing a 64mb can't handle (admitted I'll miss some of the details). I'll also throw in a 256mb block of ram, that'll gimme 512mb of ram, that should help big time (especially when playing emus .... Only slowdown after that will be my 750mhz Duron cpu

[wavemaster]

[Update]

The first GF4 TI4200 graphic cards are available from end of June. The price is located around 200€ - way cheaper than the 4400 and 4600 cards, the performance is said to be only 10-15% less to the GF4 TI4600.

64 MB RAM on the card are enough - more memory doesn't necessarily result in a better perfomance. It's more important to check the tech specs of the RAM - good cards are equipped with fast DDR memory (3.8 or 4 ΅s). The frequency rate of the chipset/memory are at 250/500 MhZ, a bit slower as the TI4600, and the TI4200 cards are building shorter - good if your PC case is no server tower.

Let me know if you want to sell your TNT2 - my girlfriend needs a bit more advanced card than the currently built-in S3 Virge.

[80sSmurf]

Thanx for the heads-up Wavey A fast gfx card would be a good idea since I'm still runnin' pc133 SDRam

Sure you can buy the TNT2 card, and cheap too
We'll talk about it if/when you get here

[aaron]

Smurfie... I never did see the point in getting the latest and greatest when it comes to hardware. Sure, getting a 2+ ghz pentium 4, 1 gig of ram, a 160 gig hard disk, a geforce 4, and all the other new add ons is nice, but when you boil it down, it all comes down to this: you do REALLY need it?

I bought my pentium iii 800 just over 1 year ago. While technologically it is outdated, NOTHING on the market REQUIRES what I have. There is only 1 game I have (no one lives forever) which has maximum specs of a pentium iii 750, 32 mb of VRAM, and 64 mb regular memory.

I got my geforce 2 titanium last november. The geforce 4 wasn't out on the market yet, and the geforce 3 was still REALLY expensive. The dirt cheapest I could find was $190. I didn't feel like spending that much on a video card.

Also, before you go and blow a huge amount of green on the latest and greatest, think about this: what software are you going to be using that NEEDS it? Even my most demanding games can't utilize all of my processor.

On top of this, most games of today cannot use all the capabilities of the new video cards. When I bought my geforce 2, the third generation was still relatively new, and NO GAME on the market used it. None. So why spend the money? Now of course some probably do, but I wouldn't waste your money on the top of the line when nothing is using its capabilities.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

If you want more detail on certain video cards, check out www.tomshardware.com and www.anandtech.com, both sites have excellent hardware reviews and comparisons.

[80sSmurf]

Well Aaron that was exactly my philosophy when I build my computer last year (Duron 750mhz processor, 256mb ram & a 32mb gfx card). No game or software is even close to maxing out my system, ecxept some emulators (they tend to be heavy on your system). That said, some games do benefit a lot from a high-end gfxcard, and adds that extra something to the whole gaming experience.

Emus are the main reason I wanna upgrade to a 64mb gfx card, and IMO you can't really have too much ram at your disposal (especially when runnin' Windows ), so that's why I wanna throw in additional ram.

I'm also looking to get a TV out on my computer mainly to be able to watch DVD in my bedroom .... I've come to the conclusion that a 64mb card suits my needs at the moment

Thanx for the links

[Shakey]

Originally posted by aaron
When I bought my geforce 2, the third generation was still relatively new, and NO GAME on the market used it.

That is not exactly correct. Actually when the Geforce 3's came out they were DirectX 8 compliant (using programable shaders) and there were several games that used this technology. Aquanox, Ballistics and Dronez all were geared towards these cards.

The Geforce 2's are only current as far as DirectX 7 as far as games go and what they can utilize. Two games that are due out this year will make good use of the technology in the Geforce 3 & 4 cards - Unreal 2 and Doom 3. A Geforce 2 will still run them, but will not be able to take advantage of the shaders. Therefore the graphics will not be as crisp as on a Geforce 3 or 4.

I wouldn't blow my life savings on a card, Smurf. If you are heavily into gaming like I am though, then I would suggest that you get the best that you can afford. It will make a difference. Especially with the titles coming to market this year.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

[wavemaster]

Gotta stick to my Tech Twin here...

Well, you can take an old VW Beetle and a Lamborghini Murcielago to reach your destination - both cars are able to go along at 55 mph pretty well. But if you need just a little more power, you will soon find out that the VW has already reached it's limit while the Lambo is just getting warm. Of course, the Lambo is way more expensive - but you always have the extra power, not to mention the style (that's if you want to talk about the sense of owning a Lambo).
Same goes for graphic cards as well as for every other component of a PC - I was able to play RTCW on my old 350PII with the ELSA Gladiac GF2MX, but it was not half the fun, compared to the system of a friend (Duron 1000 with a Radeon 8500 gfc, can't recall the manufacturer). I still own the Gladiac, but with the new Athlon 1700 XP, things are happening a lot faster and smoother.
You simply can't have enough power and a good outfit - to stick on the car comparision, a good system should be like the new Audi RS6: good overload on power, a nice outfit...and it's simply sexy to have an overall good performance.
Of course, you can't have this for a discount price, but it's generally better to lash out more cash and have the desired performance, plus the security that you don't have to upgrade your components every now and then.

My 0.02$ here.

[80sSmurf]

Originally posted by Shakey
... I wouldn't blow my life savings on a card, Smurf. If you are heavily into gaming like I am though, then I would suggest that you get the best that you can afford ...

I'm not into games as much as I used to, but as I said earlier, those emus sure suck the power on your system real fast, even if I got a 1.2ghz cpu (that's all my motherboard can take) I'd still not be able to get max framerates and effects on some roms, so I'll wait with that one. I'll probably just build myself a new computer next year

What I can afford, will probably be something in the line of a GF3 TI 64mb, and that'll suit me just fine for the next 12 months (I hope )

Oh not sure I said this before, but RAM is your friend

[aaron]

Originally posted by Shakey


That is not exactly correct. Actually when the Geforce 3's came out they were DirectX 8 compliant (using programable shaders) and there were several games that used this technology. Aquanox, Ballistics and Dronez all were geared towards these cards.

The Geforce 2's are only current as far as DirectX 7 as far as games go and what they can utilize. Two games that are due out this year will make good use of the technology in the Geforce 3 & 4 cards - Unreal 2 and Doom 3. A Geforce 2 will still run them, but will not be able to take advantage of the shaders. Therefore the graphics will not be as crisp as on a Geforce 3 or 4.

I've heard of those top 3 games, but never seen them. Well I'm still not convinced of this. I was watching an interview with John Carmack that was done around the time on the geforce 3 and he even admitted that nothing was taking FULL advantage of all the new cards out there. Even he said that the games he is currently writing do not fully utilize the power of these new cards.

I'm sure that now this is more true, but over 6 months ago, I didn't see a single game on the market that wanted any of these newer cards. Unreal 2 won't be out until next year, Doom 3 has no scheduled delivery date, No One Lives Forever 2 won't be out until later this year, the list goes on.

If there were any games out last year that could use the geforce 3, I never saw them. Again, I read several interviews, then checked out reviews and game specs on as many leading edge games as I could, and not a single one of them *required* anything above a geforce 2.

This is why I said nothing requires them. Why would game makers require them when 90% of the population doesn't have a geforce 3? Most of the games that will heavily use them aren't even out of the market yet. I have been following Unreal 2 for the past few years and the release date isn't until 2003.

I'm sure a lot more is available for the 3 and 4 cards than was last november, but I don't expect to see the majority of games requiring those cards until next year. I was looking over ebgames web site and the majority of really cool games that require a high end graphics card won't be out until late this year, with most giving a spring 2003 release date.

Knowing this, why would you run out and buy a geforce 3 or 4 card that costs hundreds of dollars? What game on the market right now can FULLY utilitize that card? There probably are a few, but not a whole lot. The cards are too new.

[Shakey]

That's weird that John Carmack made that comment. It was actually a comment by him that guided me to my new card (Geforce4 TI 4400).

"Do not buy a Geforce4 MX for Doom. Nvidia has really made a mess of the naming conventions here. I always thought it was bad enough that the Geforce2 was just a speed-bumped GF1, while GF3 had significant architectural improvements over GF2."

He went on to say that a Geforce2 would still run Doom, but would not provide the same performance.

I agree that there are not a lot of games available that take advantage of the power of the Geforce4, but they are on there way.

It all comes down to what you want though really. I like to pump up the resolution to get the graphics as crisp as possible. Also, now with the GF4, I can run Quincunx (comparable to 4x AA) to combat the "jaggies" and take an almost imperceptible performance hit. That's a feature well worth having to me.

If a person is not an avid gamer though, planning to run the latest and greatest, I would say that a Geforce4 MX would probably be okay. Just didn't meet my needs.

[aaron]

As much as I would love to have geforce 4 card, that is just way too much money for me. I just shelled out over $2000 on a car, and have other things I've saving for.

I have been thinking about upgrading to a dual cpu pentium 4, along with a hardcore video card, but the more I think about it, I figure do I REALLY need it? Nope.

I don't plan a hell of a lot of games anymore. The last game I really got into was No One Lives Forever, and that was months ago. Since then I've barely played anything.

I'm just going to stick to my geforce 2 titanium for now. Maybe next year I will get a geforce 4. I'm in no rush.

[That Guy Next Door]

I got a dual P III system, if you use Maya 3-d ( forget 3DS Max, it's for kiddos ! ) it's useful, But I'm more into DCC than games.... for games it's likely to be a bad move !!!!

TGND " DCC ??? who would have thought that of me ! "

P.S. : Thanx Wavey for updates on new chips !