The latest 80s artists to go through the Pimpenho machine (pronounce it slowly) are Tears For Fears. The sampled song in question...none other than "Everybody Wants To Rule The World". The hypocritical thug behind this sampling of an admired tune...well, it's NOT Sean "Puff Diddy Jingleheimer Schmidt" Combs, but his friend and collabarator Nas, alias Nastradamus, alias "Another sampling bastard".

I'm pissed, and I won't deny it. I know rap feeds off of unoriginality, but it bugs me anyway. These modern rappers, praising God while drinking 40s and embedding themselves in sexual entanglements, can stick it up their collective asses.

LEAVE MY 80s ALONE!

Sincerely,

John "outofplacechild" Kilduff

It's sick and disgusting when they do this to classics but, when they do it to 80's classics it's just plain evil! :mad:

Slackers!

The sampling of 80's hits only goes to show how popular these songs still are. Lots of 80's artists covered each other or older songs. That's just how the music industry is.

But then again - If you don't like it, then change the radio/tv station. I think it's neat that today's artists pay hommage to our favorite 80's songs.

I like the opposing view Flix. Tis' true that we often here a song and think it is the bomb and later find out that it is also cover so I guess listen to what you like and mute what ya don't! :D

*WARNING* This is not aimed directly at OPC!

I like sampling! It is a different kind of talent but a talent nontheless. To say rap is unoriginal bothers me. I understand it's not for everybody but as Flix says if you don't like it change the channel.

BTW, Nas is one of my favorite rappers who got his start in the 80's as Nas-D

Okay, fair enough. The criticism wasn't leveled at those who actually grew up in the 80s and would recognize the songs. I was talking more about kids my own age who gobble this stuff up and don't know what beast it came from.

It may be a compliment, but I can't say I like hearing a rhyme like "It's tough for the niggas to get in my coochie, because those fluckers think I'm a two-dollar hoochie. I want a nigga who's nice and not a sleeper, and who has one of those phat-ass Jamaican purple creepers" over a beat by the Go-Gos (No such song has occured to my knowledge, but I'm using that as an example). To me, the 80s represent a whimsical time before reality crashed the party, and since the 80s have been eviscerated down to the bone by our modern-day culture, I feel uncomfortable seeing an 80s song's skeleton redecorated in the colors of the Crips and the Bloods.

Once again, this is just IMVEPO.

Sincerely,

John "outofplacechild" Kilduff

I don't have any problems with rap. I think you are attacking a group of people that you pretty much refuse to understand. You can stereotype all you want, but it is such a waste of energy. Making up your own examples is proof of that.

I think rap, like many other genres, is built from image and attitude. Although I am not a big rap fan, I still think that it is the most innovative type of music out there. No rules and no boundaries. Everyone does their own thing. I wouldn't necessarily buy it, but I understand why many people identify themselves through it.

I think you started a very interesting discussion. Some people find the 80's more sacred than others. To me, it's all about the energy put into a remake. If someone comes out singing the song with the exact same music and voice, then I couldn't be bothered. If they are innovative and tries a different approach, then I will most likely enjoy the remake. :)

Umm...as a child of the 80s, I´m tending to agree with OPC a fair bit.

Back in the 80s, Sampling was new and innovatively used, be it Art Of Noise, Depeche Mode (who are generally quoted as the inventors of the 'orchestral shot' BTW ;)) or many of the Hip Hop and freestyle artists.

Now, or better said, since the 90s, I have the feeling that the samples were not chosen for a touch of originality but only for a wider crossover audience who may recognize the used bits. I´m also believing that the same songs would immediately vanish into oblivion without these samples.

I don´t think that it´s pretty much art to base whole careers on the constant flogging of older tracks - this is not only valid for the Hip Hop scene, but also for a lot of German Techno which is released today.

Rap is just a bunch of ghetto trash losers trying to make a few bucks singing (if you can even call it singing). I don't understand what all these rich white kids see in acting like they're from the hood. I think rap and it's little fads it started really ruined pop culture today. :( I don't believe rap is original.......it all sounds the same and all the songs have about the same lyrics.......it's just a bunch of nothings trying to make money. I agree with Flix on the sampling thing.....if it's original then that's cool but, if they do it just for a buck then it's just plain wrong.


just my opinion..........

Originally posted by Ted Nugent:
Rap is just a bunch of ghetto trash losers trying to make a few bucks singing (if you can even call it singing.

Not one rapper has ever said they were singing. To quote Eric B and Rakim "Rap is rhythm and poetry". A good rapper probably is not a good singer and vice versa. Once again it is a different type of talent. I don't see anything wrong with someone making money if they are good at something. I, in no way, act as if I'm black or a thug but I truely LOVE rap music.

I have stated my peace and now I am done.

Originally posted by djdaffy1227:
<STRONG>

Not one rapper has ever said they were singing. To quote Eric B and Rakim "Rap is rhythm and poetry". A good rapper probably is not a good singer and vice versa. Once again it is a different type of talent. I don't see anything wrong with someone making money if they are good at something. I, in no way, act as if I'm black or a thug but I truely LOVE rap music.

I have stated my peace and now I am done.</STRONG>

I guess it can be hard trying to understand somthing your not used to.......I guess it does take some talent (very little). but some. And I know not all act like a thug.

Yeah...let's not get into this whole music genre bashing thing based on personal opinion. If you don't like it, that's fine, but there are quite a few who do enjoy it (myself included if we're talking 80's stuff up to '98) so try to keep the negative enslaught down :cool:

I think what Ted was getting at by the white guys that try to pose like they're straight out the 'hood are teenagers...with very small brains...lol :p

On the talent issue and all sounding the same...if you've ever listened to 80's rap music, you'd see much different. Back then it was very much original. And even in the 90's, guys like 2Pac had very poetic lyrics in most cases...

I'll admit...today's stuff for the most part is really dry and it does kinda sound the same as everything else, but not ALL rap is that way...

Originally posted by Roemello:
<STRONG> but not ALL rap is that way...</STRONG>

I don't really know much 80's rap but, I'm sure it's all original. Better than the stuff I see nowadays at least I'm sure. I wasn't bashing rap I was just saying the reasons why I hate it. To me it symbolizes the evil 90's, so I just have this primoridal urge to hate it. I guess you'd have to understand where I come from to see my point......


I do see how someone can enjoy it, there are actaully some talented rappers it's just not my thing. :)

Hey Ted, two of my favorite 80s Rap Groups are Run DMC and The Beastie Boys. If you have a chance, catch some of their cuts from the 80s and see what you think. :)

Well, for me, if it's subtle sampling (AON, DM), it's okay. If it's blatant, then Nah. I guess I trace it back my fear/hatred/stereotyping of rap to having grown up around it and seeing it and the culture change. In my younger years, I was a fan of M.C Hammer and Vanilla Ice, but if I knew then what I know now, that might not be the case.

Anyway, I'm sorry. I am working hard on trying to see past the stereotypes, but it's hard when they're being pushed in your face. I'll listen to 80s rap gladly, but that's because I don't know what they're sampling. Today's rap, I can know pretty easily.

Once again, I aplogize for offending, but if I am stereotyping, let me work through it for myself. I'm not good under pressure from others...

Sincerely,

John "outofplacechild" Kilduff

And those are my last words about this topic.

Don't be hard on yourself, OPC. You are entitled to whatever opinion you may have. People will always disagree when you start a topic that strongly. Nothing wrong with that. This place would be boring if we all agreed on everything and we all had the same taste in music.

Admitting to being a fan of MC Hammer is however a little scary ;) :D

I know less about rap than I do about the brain as a non-linear dynamic system (friend of mine once wrote a thesis with that title. and the title is all i understood).

I do like some songs that use samples though. I loved Doctorin' The Tardis by the Timelords. They sampled the Dr. Who theme to great effect I thought. :)

Okay, maybe not.

Ted mentioned that since it was such a part of the 90s, he doesn't exactly care for it. That's part of my reason, too. The worst years of my life can be summed up from 1993 (when Tag Team's "Whoomp! There It Is" was a hit) to this very day (with Jay-Z, Ludacris, Outkast and others) as an unpleasant time for me. Rap music seemed to have a parralell growth to the depths of my misery (A parent's death, hospitalizations, school transfer, a brief stay in the care of the state, college, 5th through 12th grade). We associate music with times in our lives, good and bad. I associate rap, along with alternative rock, regular 90s rock, rave, techno and pop, with 8 years of bad luck and hard times. Does it maybe make a little more sense why I don't like rap now?

Sincerely,

John "outofplacechild" Kilduff

I can't say I dislike every rap song out there, but there are a lot that I don't like. Just flip the station, like Flix suggests. That's the great thing about radios and TVs. :)

I never could understand why people just don't use the remote. There is also an 'off' button, if nothing strikes you. :)

Originally posted by Ted Nugent:
<STRONG>It's sick and disgusting when they do this to classics but, when they do it to 80's classics it's just plain evil! :mad:</STRONG>

Exactly what I would have said!

Originally posted by outofplacechild:
<STRONG> I associate rap, along with alternative rock, regular 90s rock, rave, techno and pop, with 8 years of bad luck and hard times.
</STRONG>

Same here! Accept I associate it with the down fall of American society. But the down fall of American is another topic altogether........

Originally posted by Ted Nugent:
<STRONG>Same here! Accept I associate it with the down fall of American society. But the down fall of American is another topic altogether........</STRONG>

ROFL!

Originally posted by Flix:
<STRONG>

ROFL!</STRONG>


I think I said somthing wrong. lol

read www.fatalblindess.com (http://www.fatalblindess.com) :p and you'll see what I mean.

You didn't say anything wrong, Ted. It's just that I thought it was funny, since you sound like my mother who blame music and Hollywood for our generations lack of morale.

I respect your opinion. I just disagree.

BTW, your link didn't work.

Originally posted by Flix:
<STRONG>You didn't say anything wrong, Ted. It's just that I thought it was funny, since you sound like my mother who blame music and Hollywood for our generations lack of morale.

I respect your opinion. I just disagree.

BTW, your link didn't work.</STRONG>

I don't blame hollywood, I just associate that stuff with what has been happening these last 10 years.......

you can try www.linkamerica.com (http://www.linkamerica.com) and read some articules there.

Rap music is also considered freedom of speech Ted. If you support ultimate freedom, then you will have to deal with Rap music. To say anything else would be hypocrisy.

I hope you don't believe in everything that Fulton says in that link.

Originally posted by Flix:
<STRONG>I hope you don't believe in everything that Fulton says in that link.</STRONG>

This is aimed directly at Flix and is intended solely to hurt his feelings.
LOL!!...J/K ;)
A conservative-minded teenager? :eek: What is this world coming to? :p LOL
I think we'd be selling Ted short if we assumed that he'd buy wholesale into any one person's ideology.

As to this rap discussion, I'm not what you'd call a fan of rap, but I respect it as a creative medium and I like some of it alot. Whether you like it or not, it is the mainstream now. And saying it is all by a bunch of ghetto trash is alot like saying that rock is only for long haired, greasy, white trash. Stereotypes have a nasty way of biting you on the arse. Frankly, I am much more irritated by "rock" groups of the day who rap and call it rock. :mad:

On the original subject of sampling, I think it is very clever if used as a portion of an overall creative process. Many rap & other type of artists (like Janet Jackson, for instance) use this type of sampling, which may borrow from the original sound, but creates something entirely fresh & new. But taking an old (or not so old)standard, changing the words and calling it your song (i.e. M.C. Hammer, 2 Live Crew from the 80's)is not sampling in my book. It is musical larceny. This goes on still today. These artists need not complain about mp3 sharing when they are doing the same thing by copying someone else's work wholesale. Just my $0.02.

I agree with Janet Jackson being good at remakes. I love her new song with Carly Simon "Son of a Gun" (even if the remake is a 70s song).

I typically like remakes unless it's rap. I don't care for Limp Bizkit "Faith". The remake I hate the most is Maralyn Manson "Sweet Dreams (Are Made of These)". That is the most awful song I've ever heard. Rap Remakes (like Tupac "Changes") are generally ok, they're just not something I can really get excited about.

Rock covers of 80s songs are good. I love Alien Ant Farm "Smooth Criminal". Excellent song! The video is very clever and pays great homage to "The Gloved One".

I don't normally listen to rap, but some rap songs are actually more listenable to me with the remake aspect in it.

--Jeff

P.S. - I'd love to hear a remake of a Milli Vanilli song sometime. That'd be cool.

P.S.S. - I typically like remakes, which is why I also like Weird Al Yankovic. He rules.

Originally posted by Flix:

Admitting to being a fan of MC Hammer is however a little scary ;) :D


LOL!! Admitting to being a Vanilla Ice fan is even worse. He's the type of white guy that OPC was talking about in the first place. The type pretending to be something he is not :) As for calling songs like "Changes" a remake, I disagree with that, it is not a remake of "The way it is". It just samples the song it is an original song. (I LOVE that song BTW).

Nolan, very well said about stereotypes!

As for the thug mentality we got to remember rappers rap about what they know and 90% grew up in the ghetto gangbangin'. Perhaps you don't like rap because you don't understand the lifestyle. (I don't claim to know it either). The use of profanity, although I agree it is used in excess at times, is the way these guys talk on the street. Can you imagine a gangbanger using correct English? I think not. If you don't believe me that most of these guys lived the lifestyle then ask 2Pac and Notorious B.I.G.

OK this time I spoke my peace and am now done LOL :D

Originally posted by djdaffy1227:
<STRONG>
As for the thug mentality we got to remember rappers rap about what they know and 90% grew up in the ghetto gangbangin'. Perhaps you don't like rap because you don't understand the lifestyle. (I don't claim to know it either). The use of profanity, although I agree it is used in excess at times, is the way these guys talk on the street. Can you imagine a gangbanger using correct English? I think not. If you don't believe me that most of these guys lived the lifestyle then ask 2Pac and Notorious B.I.G.
</STRONG>

Sorry DJ...I guess that we might never share the same opinion about Hip Hop and Rap music. But you´re still pretty OK. *LOL* ;)

I hold the opinion that the last times many of the 'New School' (or whatever they call themselves today) rappers saw the street when they entered the recording studio for the first time. Even the language they use is pure calculation, otherwise they would lose the self-propagated 'street credibility'.
Attached with lots of thick golden chains, big and vulgarly displayed diamond rings and Benzers and Bimmers (MB and BMW...for those who don´t know ;)) with goldplated grilles - yes, that´s our basic homie which worked his way out of the ghetto, defending his honour and credibility with his Niner or the AK-47.
Stereotypes? Yes. I forgot to mention that women are always ho´s, better ones are maybe dubbed fly or similar. BTW, the women are not better with their constant 'men are pimps' attitude.

Really, that wouldn´t bother me that much...if the kids here wouldn´t take over this attitude. I don´t speak of the clothing - everyone´s entitled to make him- or herself an dumbass if necessary - but the attitude.
I have noticed that many kids are missing the crtical distance to what´s wrong. I won´t blame it entirely on the music, but the influence can´t be denied.
We have a youth center here...when you enter, you will hear the latest in rap music. And, if it comes to an quarrel, you will wonder how fast the weapons are drawn, from the standard butterfly knive to the gas pistol which looks exactly like the originals. Many volunteers have quitted because they simply fear for their health. YO homie...that´s the reality, Germany 2001.

And all because the kids are hooked up to the modern version of the Rattenfänger of Hameln. If those guys would have more common sense, they may would give a second thought on their lyrics.

For the music itself...if they would refrain from the overdisplayed use of whole tracks for their songs, even me could enjoy it more. I have to admit that this stuff is great for rolling down the street on an summer evening with the Pioneer´s pumping. :D

My 2 cents...now you can gang up on me. ;)

Originally posted by Flix:
<STRONG>Rap music is also considered freedom of speech Ted. If you support ultimate freedom, then you will have to deal with Rap music. To say anything else would be hypocrisy.

I hope you don't believe in everything that Fulton says in that link.</STRONG>


I know I have to deall with it, it's not like I want it banned.......

and yeah I know not everything one person says is right. but he certainly has many good points.

This has turned out to be a really good thread, way to go everybody!!

Look at Wave kicking the shiznit live for 2002, in the hizouse with nowhere to gizo :) LOL I still like German people! :D

I think we all need to ask ourselves a fundamental question here:

What is the big difference between Rap music of the 80's and early 90's as opposed to the Rap music of today?

The answer is the lyrical content and the image that goes with it. You guys might laugh about MC Hammer, but his act just like Ice's was all about pomp and bravado. Nobody took him seriously, and anyone who did must have a surname of McFly....

Did you hear MC Hammer rapping about how hard life is for him because of all the white brothers who 'dis' him? Or The Sugarhill Gang rapping about the fact that it's basically acceptable to smack 'bitches' around, shoot innocent people, disrespect your family and the law?

No, I thought not. Rap back then was harmless, and on occasion raised issues that not only concerned the individual but the population on the whole.

What concerns me most of all nowadays about rap (or CRAP with a silent 'c') is the complete contempt and lack of respect displayed by certain artists for other people and the surrounding environment.

I personally get sick to death of hearing the same old lyrical shit from Rap Artists. Hello? Anybody home?? I'm TIRED of it. The trouble with music at the moment is that it just doesn't know when to quit and move on to something new.

I used to enjoy Rap, so for now I guess I'll have to put my Snap 'The Power' CD single in the Rom drive to remind myself of better times.... :D

Originally posted by nolanbuc:
<STRONG>And saying it is all by a bunch of ghetto trash is alot like saying that rock is only for long haired, greasy, white trash. Stereotypes have a nasty way of biting you on the arse.</STRONG>

Very true! And while no one actually mentioned disliking any race or group of people in this thread, this statement reminded of a joke that Chris Rock told in one of his specials. He said, "you shouldn't sterotype and you shouldn't hate. Because whoever you hate is gonna end up in your family. If you hate Latino people, your daughter is gonna come home with 'Livin' La Vida Loca'! If you hate gays and blacks, well, Guess Who's Coming To Dinner!" Or something to that effect. Of course, you have to see the whole thing for that to be funny. LOL

Well well...look what story has turned up in the National Paper today:

"RAP MUSIC KILLED MY NEPHEW, SAYS FASH"

Former England Soccer Star John Fashanu blamed violent rap music for the death of his nephew at the hands of a school bully.

He says music by stars such as Dr Drem Eminem and DMX encourages aggression and gives out sexist, dehumanising messages.

Now he wants a worldwide body set up to vet offensive lyrics and plans to take his campaign to United Nations Secretary Kofi Annan when he meets him early next year.

Former Wimbledon striker Fashanu said "I blame this music for Jude's death. I see my son listening to it and I know it makes him feel violent. Boys at Jude's school were influenced by this kind of music too. It has a very popular following and gives out the message that aggression is OK."

"The real problem we have is urban black music coming out of America which promotes hatred and violence. They refer to black people as niggers and have effectively made it acceptable as a trendy word. They had done a full circle on civil rights and should be ashamed of themselves."

"This is what is leading to the deaths of some of our young people. As a high profile member of the black community it is up to people like me to do something about it. There is no doubt that black music today promotes violence, dehumanisation and aggression, particularly towards women."

"These people think they are being clever brothers, but they are just downright stupid with all this nonsense about motherf******s abd bitches. Who the hell do they think they are, promoting all this nonsense?"

Originally posted by Steve Chase:
<STRONG> The trouble with music at the moment is that it just doesn't know when to quit and move on to something new.
</STRONG>

I had to highlight this line! It sums up to me what I feel about all music of today. Everything has gotten stale and something new needs to come along and quick! Thanks for saying that, Steve.

Pop culture gets blamed for everything....remember Collumbine (or however it is spelled) they blamed Marylin Manson. I think you need to look deeper then music. does it have an effect? certainly, but if the kid was stable in the first place he would have been smart enough not to do what he did. I don't buy into the notion that music is to blame everytime a teen or pre-teen commits a crime!

Well, maybe the music (and certain movies, too) won´t be the reason for commiting crimes in the first place, but like I´ve mentioned before, there is a certain influence.

For me...I really can´t say if I had followed if my favourite band (Depeche Mode...for those who didn´t know yet ;)) had passed out the parole 'let´s go out on the streets and have a riot'. They surely had an influence on my life back then, from my looks to the attitude.

I guess that if you are disappointed or disillusioned enough by the circumstances around you, your favourite music and the artists who are representing them might become some kind of replacement identity.
That´s not entirely the fault of the music or the artists, but you can´t also deny that the stereotypes about the consumers of certain styles are not coming from nowhere. This is also emphasized by the artists and the fans itself...if I were in the US, I would feel pretty uncomfortable at a concert of an black Rap performance, as some of them would surely think 'Hell, what is this whitebread scum doing here?'. During the Metal concerts I´ve visited, the majority of the audience had long hair and were dressed in leather and jeans. Yep, and most of them were dead drunken after those events, and unfortunately, behaving violent too. Last but not least...we 'Waveheads' had also our dress code, hair and attitude.
All in the attempt of being an individual among a movement.

Of course, the media is willing to jump on such events like the 'Satanic murderings' which had happened here not too long before, distorting the truth to their favour (and to what the readers are craving for...sex and violence).

Well, I wouldn´t go that far to say 'ban everything which is not about love and peace' - that´s censorship, nothing more and nothing less. I´m only asking for a bit of common sense, regardless of the music style.

Oh, by the way...Daffy, do you care to explain the word 'shiznit' to me? ;)